For an improved shopping experience, we recommend that you use the most recent versions of Google Chrome, Safari, or Firefox. 0000028519 00000 n Alternatively, the chain can be lengthened, but then the rider will have to avoid cross-chaining when using the small chainring, otherwise the extra slack may cause the chain to derail from the chainring. He has a particular focus on mountain bikes, but spends plenty of time on gravel bikes, too. Cassettes and cranksets are what matter with a drivetrains rotational mass and potential fatigue coefficient. Designed with SRAM's Eagle geometry, the GX Eagle chain features solid pin construction, EaglePowerLockand smooth, efficient shifting that you can count on every time out. BOOST is the standard wheel and drivetrain specification that opens the opportunity for improved frame geometry with shorter chain stays, wider and stiffer suspension pivots, wider range of chainring options, as well as more clearance for bigger tires and wider, stiffer wheels. Cable tension is critical for accuracy, but the geometry of the derailleur and the sprocket spacing must match the indexed cable pull, otherwise the derailleur will not align with each sprocket. Consumers would find it easier to replace any part at short notice, retailers would be able to offer more options to their customers, and service centres would be able to attend to all repairs and servicing in a timely manner rather than being forced to wait on the delivery of proprietary parts. Abbey tools are drool-worthy and its made a special DUB tool (regular tools can also be used), The system for crank fitment has been refined (prototype cranks), Improving the interface between the spindle and crank arm aids stiffness (prototype crank), The SRAM Descendant crank for enduro riders. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. This is especially true when comparing one manufacturer with another, but it can also also apply to different levels of components from the one brand. Specialized Shiv). Hi, I wanted to upgrade my crankset for my rockhopper expert 1x to a sram eagle gx crank with a dub english 73mm bb as they are a matched pair. Visit sram.com/service for Frame Fit Specifications. This has been improved ergonomically and with a better pitch so users can feel the adjuster bottom out on the bearing easier, helping them avoid over tightening. Why did US v. Assange skip the court of appeal? For the purposes of this article, I recognise three levels of compatibility: go, no-go, and variable. Theres also a bottom bracket made for E-type chain guides the BSA 73E. Can be used in BB30, PF30, BBRight, 386EVO frames with the appropriate length spindle. Parabolic, suborbital and ballistic trajectories all follow elliptic paths. Crank spindles are 30mm and then have a step-down to 28mm to lock on the non-drive side bearing. For those using road disc brakes, hydraulic levers and callipers from Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo are not interchangeable. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Remove all crank spacers and wave washer if present. At $275 American dollars, this isnt the most expensive component on your bike. If you compare the SRAM NX and GX rear derailleurs, the latter has more structural stiffness, which allows it to be configured with closer shifting tolerances. We took it a step beyond conventional thinking and made everything simplerbetter integrating the relationship between chainring, crank, spindle and bottom bracket. However, as I kept constantly tightening the screw the gap slowly disappeared and now the crank is there without any spacer or washer. 0000031292 00000 n As a result, the chains and cassettes from the two brands have always been completely interchangeable for any given type of transmission (e.g. See SRAM'sPrivacy Policyfor a detailed explanation of how your personal data is used. After that, the width and spacing of the sprockets was reduced to allow more sprockets to be added. The NX cassette might be much heavier, with a slightly tapered gearing range, but it does offer fantastic component convergence. 0000013660 00000 n The photo above is representative of the contents, but the crank arms do come in plastic sleeves offering some shipping protection. 0000039867 00000 n No huge surprise there, though. In its press release, it claims that the RaceFace Next SL G4 crank (arguably the XC. 0000009437 00000 n XD was developed so that the company could offer a 10T sprocket with its new cassettes to increase the range of gear ratios for the 111 transmission. 3-piece crankset with separate, replaceable spindle. See our article Bottom brackets, crank axles and bearings: Your guide to a compatible fit for more information on this topic. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. While the demands for the chain and cassette are fairly stringent, chainrings (and cranksets) are far more forgiving, so it is possible to mix brands as well as 10- and 11-speed versions without having an impact on the quality of shifting. In contrast, Shimano and Campagnolo owners will need to replace both derailleurs and the shifters. Advertising and commercial: sales@off-road.cc, Mountain bike, bikepackingand gravel bikes. COMET MODULAR CRANKSET work on my bike better then? pdf 679 KB Already have an account with us? Was this article helpful? The evolution of the transmission from six-speed to 11-speed created further incompatibilities. SRM SRAM MTB Power Meter. The SRAM GX Eagle AXScontroller offers unparalleled customization: featuring the option to swap paddle shapes, the ability to assign different touchpoints using the SRAM AXS app, and the choice of either the AXS Discrete or tidyMatchMakerX clamps. SRAM GXP crank partially stuck in bottom bracket. PF30 68. Ideally, that sum total should be equal to, or less than, the manufacturers stated rear derailleur capacity. It funny because when AXS was launched some people were so thrilled that road and mtb parts . 2021 E-MTB Components Compatibility Map: English. hb``Pa``= [P30p,``4@Ub{?bU;6|8%S^zFI vS< Ym`OtjXtcX cd`X When it comes to choosing the best MTB groupset, SRAM is a highly considered choice owing to the brand's reliability, performanceand durability. In contrast, attempting to mix 10- and 11-speed chains and cassettes from any brand is likely to cause more noticeable problems. With an expanded, 520-percent gear range giving riders more ability to spin and recover on the burliest climbs, Does your derailleur protect itself? > Buy now: SRAM GX Crankset for 12-Speed Cassettesfrom eBayfor 130.68 PF30 79-A (BBRIGHT) PF30 73-A (Cannondale) T47 85.5. Why is it shorter than a normal address? As rotational components, any grams saved with a lighter cassette or crankset make a difference you can feel when riding. 71 grams doesnt seem like much, but I could feel it on the steepest of climbs when I was sitting there just spinning. The crank slides completely through a 24x37 drive side bearing and stops against a 22x37 non drive side bearing. Thanks to the. View the SRAM Eagle Product Line View all SRAM Bike Cranksets. So are these worth it? It can be mounted on a cheaper and more accessibleHG freehub, without requiring a SRAM XD driver upgrade, as is the case with GX. eebrakes), however some variability in performance should be expected. SRAMs XD freehub body is only compatible with its XD cassettes, however owners are free to use any 11-speed chain with the cassette. There is another, more subtle, incompatibility that affects different brands of hubs and wheels, but it will only have an impact on those riders using multiple wheelsets. The SRAM NX cassette specification is 11-50T, calculating to a range of 454%. Thats because the 11-speed cassettes were wider. However, the major manufacturers maintain that it is a necessary byproduct of their ongoing R&D efforts. By submitting this form, you consent to the processing of the above information in the U.S. by SRAM LLC. More recently, though, Shimano increased the cable pull of its brake levers and re-designed its rim callipers to suit. SRAM NX vs GX: compatibility concerns SRAM doesn't provide a BB92 compatible BB/crankset because they simply don't care about the standard. Spindle length varies depending on type of crank (road, Mountain, Triple, etc.). 0000032315 00000 n SRAM is bringing to market a complete update of its 12-speed crank range, from GX Eagle up to XX1 Eagle, via Stylo and Descendant, all based around a new axle diameter specification named DUB (Durable, Unifying Bottom Bracket). For example, Shimanos mechanical Dura-Ace 7900 shifters are not compatible with a Dura-Ace 9000 derailleurs because 7900 was a 10-speed groupset and 9000 is 11-speed. BB30 68. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. What I want to ask - is there an adapter for this? Cranksets can often be overlooked on a bike build, and budget options get selected. 0000042264 00000 n Get access to more than 30 brands, premium video, exclusive content, events, mapping, and more. For exclusive emails, discounts, promotions and new product announcements - plus a few surprises. I do still hit my pedals occasionally, but I added the SRAM crank arm boots to ease my paranoia. Now all current wheels, hubs, and bikes fitted with Shimano/SRAM are 11-speed-ready, but for those riders than have yet to upgrade from nine- or 10-speed groupsets, it remains an important consideration if their wheels hark from the same era. No idea exactly which models do and dont fit though. Sram crankset compatibility. For those contemplating a piecemeal upgrade from 10-to 11-speed, there may be no need to replace the derailleurs, at least for SRAM mechanical groupsets. Find all the documentation needed to set up, use, and maintain your components in the SRAM Service hub. Sun up to sun down in Queenstown with Ryan Howard. The bottom brackets have a new sealing system that, SRAM says, is more durable than before. But feel I've only been a true Mountain Biker since 2012. This makes for an amount of enforced redundancy, much to the displeasure of at least some buyers. Lance Branquinho is a Namibian-born media professional who graduated to mountain biking after injuries curtailed his fascination with trail running. But the difference was noticeable, for the positive. The cover is also compatible with our existing XX1 and X01 EagleAXSderailleurs. Hes also worked out that shaving your legs saves 8 watts, while testing aerodynamics in a wind tunnel. perhaps spacers are used on the axle. All the cranks will be available in 170mm and 175mm versions, with the GX Eagle cranks also getting a 165mm option. Our SRAM RED, Force, and Rival 12-speed cranksets are compatible with the following frame bottom bracket interfaces when used with the appropriate SRAM DUB bottom bracket and spacers: What PowerLock do I use for my Flattop 12-speed chain? Drive side bearing is pressed on the spindle up against the crank arm. Once again, shims can be used to normalise the alignment of the rotors for multiple wheelsets, but this is only possible for 6-bolt rotors, so those using centre lock hubs may have to consider a switch to a 6-bolt adapter. If you have a SRAM XX1, X01, GX or NX Eagle MTB groupset, you will need a 12-speed SRAM Eagle chain. He has a weakness for British steel hardtails, especially those which only run a single gear. Likewise, Shimano and SRAM buyers have the freedom to mix different levels of chains and cassettes. Current Bikes: 2019 Yeti SB150, also seeking an additional short travel companion. <]/Prev 59827/XRefStm 1335>> And it only takes an hour to charge. Both require dedicated fittings on the frame and fork, so they arent interchangeable. Nevertheless, it is possible to mix some parts, so heres a look at what will and wont work for 10- and 11-speed road groupsets. In contrast, Dura-Ace 9000 and 9100 shifters and derailleurs are interchangeable. The new GX Eagle AXS derailleur and shifter are compatible with any other, current SRAM Eagle chains, chainrings, cassettes and cranks. You interpreted correctly that a SRAM 10-speed rear derailleur (road or mountain) paired with a SRAM road 11-speed shifter will shift properly with an 11-speed chain and cassette. Shimano 12-Speed MTB Chains However, Potenza shifter will operate a Super Record, Record, or Chorus rear derailleur without any significant issues. Featuring our X-SYNC 2 tooth profile chainring for complete chain control. Uses wave washer on drive side of crankset to take up any play in crank. According to manufacturer recommendations, the capacity of a short-cage rear derailleur is 33-34T, and this increases to 37T for mid-cage versions. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Absolutely. Differences in price are accounted for not only by the construction of the crank arms but also the chainrings. Reviews, buying advice and news. Pre-order the Official Tour De France Race Guide 2023. As for aftermarket brakes, there is very little information that is readily available on their performance with different levers; generally, theyre designed with some sort of compromise so as to accommodate all levers with varying degrees of performance. Backwards compatible with both our original and expanded range Eagle Cassettes, the boundary to the next generation of shifting has never been more open. GX Eagle Specs & Features: Mid-tier group Matchmaker X compatible with ZERO LOSS tech XD driver 10-50t or 10-52t pinned cassette 10-52t cassette is not compatible with previous generation Eagle derailluers 0000026387 00000 n As a general concept, then, there is very little interchangeability amongst groupset components, which is something any shopper should keep in mind when selecting the parts for a custom road bike build. Indeed, it is now possible to mix and match 11-speed chains and cassettes from all three manufacturers with satisfactory results in most instances. It is worth noting that there are different fittings for rim callipers on road bikes that dictate what kind of brake can be used. 0000042637 00000 n The latter explains why a Shimano or SRAM cassette cannot be fitted to a wheel with a Campagnolo freehub body (and vice versa, save for Edcos unique freehub body design, which will accommodate both). Any advice is appreciated! GX Eagle AXS combines rugged durability with connected wireless technology that's made for the mountain. There are also differences in fluid transfer from the master cylinders, hose specifications, and fittings that will further complicate mating one brand to another. SRAM. BB30 to BSA frame conversion with internal cable routing? NOTE: FSA MegaEXO crank spindle diameters can be as large as 24.07mm. But the NX offers a lot for riders who want a deep-value 1x12 drivetrain for their mountain bike and dont mind working a little harder up the climbs or shifting a touch slower. With proven AXS wireless technology and the rugged durability of GX, its Eagle at its best. . Does the 500-table limit still apply to the latest version of Cassandra? Bearings are pressed onto the spindle next to each crank arm instead of pressed into the bottom bracket cups. Free shipping for many products! At this stage, SRAM has yet to release an XDR cassette but it seems likely that it will serve a 112 transmission specifically designed for road use. Cheap little C-shaped ring with 22mm ID and 24mm OD. Be that as it may, it is possible to ignore this capacity and use a larger sprocket without changing the length of the chain so long as the rider is prepared to avoid cross-chaining when using the big chainring (albeit with potentially dire consequences if you forget). SRAM claims that the combined weight of an XX1 crank (175mm, 32t ring) plus bottom bracket is 498 grams. Thus, owners of 10-speed cranksets fitted with a power meter do not need to replace the chainrings if they upgrade to an 11-speed transmission. Indexed shifting works because the rear derailleur travels a precise distance in response to a pre-set amount of cable pull within the shift lever. As silly as it may seem to some, two cassette cog teeth make a sizable difference in gear rangeand provide a lower bailout/climbing . SRAM and Shimano 9, 10, 11 and 12-speed MTB setups explained, YT's Jeffsy Primus 27 and Saracen's Levarg gravel bike, Pads from Discobrakes, Hutchinson's 2.4in Kraken and more, Saracen reintroduces the Levarg and adds a flat-bar option, Best cycling computers 2023 - top options for mountain biker. In contrast, Campagnolos Chorus EPS parts are completely incompatible with the companys Record/Super Record EPS components, including the wires, batteries, and chargers. 29mm diameter spindles. 0000034565 00000 n Non-drive side bearing is pressed into the non-drive side bottom bracket cup. 0000001118 00000 n Keep reading to learn the differences and understand which drivetrain is best for the type of riding you enjoy. Engaged, and living in Boulder with our 2 dogs. * Eagle cranksets are compatible with 11 speed SRAM chains when used in a 1x11 system. We got an early sneak peak of these prototype cranks gun case and all! To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Those differences do not extend to the rotors, though, so it is possible to use any brand, including aftermarket versions, so long as it is the right diameter. In many instances, it is possible to mix different levels of shifters and derailleurs from the same brand (e.g. Those differences are far less noticeable for 11-speed groupsets. While Campagnolos current Super Record, Record, Chorus, and Potenza mechanical groupsets are all 11-speed, a Potenza rear derailleur will not pair well with Super Record, Record, or Chorus shifters. This capacity, which is expressed in terms of teeth, accounts for both the difference in size between both chainrings (e.g. Likewise, Shimano and SRAM buyers have the freedom to mix different levels of chains and cassettes so long as they are designed for the same kind of transmission. GX shifters are tauter to the touch, with less play. For those hoping to use an even larger sprocket, Wolf Tooths Road Link can increase the clearance of a mid-cage derailleur to accommodate sprockets as as large as 40T. Compatible with Shimano, FSA, Gaint (Red) : . FC-GX-1-C1 Features Our best aluminum crankset. 0000042716 00000 n In general, the performance of these combinations may be satisfactory but it is not guaranteed, or there is a risk of an incompatibility, depending on the specific components involved. With an expanded, 520-percent gear range giving riders more ability to spin and recover on the burliest climbs. By submitting this form, you consent to the processing of the above information in the U.S. by SRAM LLC. The weight savings is noticeable, especially when it comes to your drivetrain. xref > Buy now: SRAM NX Eagle 12 Speed Mountain Bike Groupsetfrom Chainreactioncyclesfor259.99, > Buy now: SRAM GX Eagle 12 Sp DUB Drivetrain GroupsetfromChainreactioncycles for 411.75. 2. Is Shimano MTB front derailleur compatible with SRAM crankset? endstream endobj 1020 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/Index[14 968]/Length 49/Size 982/Type/XRef/W[1 1 1]>>stream 30mm spindle diameter cranks. Thats generous but with the latest SRAM product upgrade to GX, you can opt for a 10-52T Eagle cassette, with a gearing spread of 520%, sure to get up even the steepest climbs without maxing out that heart rate. What incompatibilities or surprising compatibilities have you come across when building or upgrading your bike? As a result, Shimanos newest brake/shifter levers arent well suited to SRAM or Campagnolo brake callipers, and vice versa, or even earlier versions of its own dual-pivot callipers (e.g. SRAM argues that this isnt a new standard. Similar to other 30mm spindle cranks. This upgrade cost me $2 per gram of weight savings. Either you have JavaScript disabled or your browser does not support JavaScript. 11- and 12-speed compatible; Imported. It also is compatible with SRAM's matchmaker system allowing you to clamp shifter and brake together on the bars. Crankset compatibility: Specialized Stout XC vs. SRAM GX 1000 GXP, New blog post from our CEO Prashanth: Community is the future of AI, Improving the copy in the close modal and post notices - 2023 edition, Shimano chainring / crankset compatibility. Included is a 32 tooth, 3 mm offset, direct mount chainring that is compatible with all SRAM Eagle Drivetrains; AXS included. The major manufacturers are very unforgiving of any deterioration in performance but not all riders are so discerning. GX EAGLE CHAIN Designed with SRAM's Eagle geometry, the GX Eagle chain features solid pin construction, Eagle PowerLock and smooth, efficient shifting that you can count on every time out. SRAM just unveiled the new 112 Eagle XX1, X01, and GX groups with new graphics and 10-52-tooth cassettes to expand their gear range to 520%. SRAM GXP crank installation and rear hub preload. These two components account for the most weight in your drivetrain. If total energies differ across different software, how do I decide which software to use? - CR8986 - RaceFace Large or CK4799 - SRAM (Black Only) All Red Models with a slight modification on the pedal spindle hole (front and back) on the boot. The SRAM Eagle AXS Transmission chain looks like the SRAM 12-speed Road Flattop chain. Thanks! rev2023.5.1.43404. Here are the results of GX Aluminum vs. GX Carbon: Packaging is typical SRAM Eagle, everything you need with a slight excess of cardboard. Our incredibly resilient Overload Clutch design allows the derailleur to sense impact and safeguard against potential damage. Engineered to mirror our podium topping XX1 and X01 Eagle AXSderailleurs, the new SRAM GX Eagle AXS derailleur comes from the same bloodline, featuring the rugged dependability youve come to expect from our GX Eagle drivetrains. But what are the sacrifices when choosing the affordability of NX over GX Eagle? AXS COMPONENT COMPATIBILITY ELECTRONIC COMPATIBILITY Choose your Primary Component(s), Optional System Component(s), and the System Controller(s) for a customized bicycle experience. And the exact SRAM part number is 00.6118.607.001. The FSA crank you linked appears to have a 24mm spindle, so this should fit as is. Are you hitting your pedals on technical climbs? , the derailleur has freedom to move out of harm's way, before instantly returning to its position for a seamless experience for the rider. Yes, we too had the collective groan when we first heard about it, but SRAM makes a fair point there is nothing here that will change frame design. When that clearance is defeated, the jockey wheel will run into one or more of the largest sprockets. . pdf 126 KB: MTB Hub/Fork/Wheel/End Cap Compatibilty : RockShox, SRAM. The Lost Co. is a small, independently owned and operated bike shop located in Bellingham, WA. 12 out of 16 found this helpful Related articles What is this brick with a round back and a stud on the side used for? The 2021 SRAM Eagle GX 12-speed mountain bike group set. Furthermore, there can be differences in the pads used by different models of disc brake callipers from the same manufacturer (e.g. It only takes a minute to sign up. X7 is also a 10-speed drivetrain (2x or 3x) but this one gets SRAM's Roller Bearing Clutch on the rear mech to stop that chain dropping off. In contrast, there was no such need for Campagnolos 11-speed cassettes since there was no change in the overall width. In some instances, shims can be added to the rear axle to achieve perfect interchangeability, however there are many brands of hubs where this is not possible. Any bit of weight you can take away from the spinning mass on your bike; drivetrain, wheels, tires youll feel it. Hi, I ended up buying the FSA Comet Megaexo Modular Crankset 2X. As noted above, there is little or no backwards or forwards compatibility for Shimano, Campagnolo, or SRAM, so earlier versions of any given shifter may not be compatible with current derailleurs (and vice versa). Tiagra 4700 remains compatible with any Shimano/SRAM 10-speed chain and cassette. Converting an SRAM Apex 2x10 to 1x10. Or would my money have been better spent elsewhere? The SRAM AXS Battery offers approximately 20 hours of ride time or more, weighs just 25g and is detachable with a single clip. Checking battery life is easy: green light means its at or close to full charge. Your frames bottom bracket shell, which is BSA threaded. Mix and match with chains and cassettes available in Black, Gold, Rainbow and Copper to curate a look thats all you. With a focus on long wear-life, the X-SYNC 2 Eagle design reduces friction and the accumulation of mud, grit and grime. At this stage in the development of electronic groupsets, there are far fewer options available, but already there are marked differences in compatibility between the major manufacturers. Many press fit BBs are made to take 30mm axles, but 30mm axles are less common in threaded BBs (but it is possible, and BBs are made for that purpose). Found a better price? XD, a new freehub body and cassette design, Bottom brackets, crank axles and bearings: Your guide to a compatible fit, Wolf Tooths Road Link can increase the clearance of a mid-cage derailleur, FSA K-Force WE 12-speed groupset Getting a hands on feel at Sea Otter Classic, Vaast R/1 road bike review: Magnesium tubing offers a distinctly cushy ride. Is there a cassette available with an 11-tooth start so I don't have to change the 11-speed HG driver on my rear wheel to XDR? Thus, it is not compatible with any cassettes from either of those companies, or SRAMs conventional road cassettes. 0000001536 00000 n The cover is also compatible with our existing XX1 and X01 Eagle, The AXS App is the built-in componentry software that makes it possible to connect, personalize AXS enabled components from SRAM, RockShox, Zipp and. Meanttobeusedacross allBBstandards. 0000040508 00000 n In this post an updated version of an article that we first published in 2014 Australian tech editor Matt Wikstrom takes a look at the known incompatibilities for 10- and 11-speed road groupsets and highlights those instances where it is possible to mix parts from different brands. Can I mix SRAM Eagle AXS Transmission components with Eagle Drivetrain components? It seems that some of the highest end SRAM Eagle cranksets (specifically XX1) have options that accommodate the Cannondale offset, but I'm not seeing that for the less expensive GX. Lance is an award-winning writer who has contributed to myriad piblications all over the world including Cyclingnews, Bike Perfect, MBR, Topgear, TopCar andCar magazine. SRAM isn't lying; the full complement of new Red shift components (shifter, front derailleur, crankset and chainrings) provides the best performance. PRIMARY COMPONENT(S)1 VEy^Be 4 Thus the AXS chainrings are not compatible with any chain other than the AXS flat top chain. SRAM 11 speed Apex derailleur w/ SRAM GX 10-42t cassette. Shimanos flat-mount callipers use a different pad from its older post-mount callipers), so buyers need to know the brand and model of calliper when shopping for new pads. Failing that, it may be possible to machine the existing freehub body and/or the cassette (an extra 1.8mm is all thats required); otherwise, the Shimano/SRAM freehub body can be replaced with a Campagnolo version (if available), remembering that Campagnolos 11-speed cassettes will perform well with Shimanos and SRAMs 11-speed transmissions. SRAM's cassettes and chains are compatible with all of Shimano's groupsets, and vice versa. 0000028635 00000 n Perhaps there will come a time when there will be widespread compatibility amongst components, but for now, consumers will have to continue to wrestle with the intricacies of groupset compatibilities. SRAM Road Cranksets: All Force Models with a slight modification on the pedal spindle hole (front and back) on the boot. Would you like to receive offers, updates and events from BikeRadar and its publisher Our Media Ltd (an Immediate Group Company)? If you are installing the new wider range 10-52t cassette on an Eagle AXS rear derailleur, you need to get the new SRAM B-tension Chain Gap Tool. I need to replace the crankset on my Specialized Rockhopper 29 Expert (year 2017) due to damage. 0. Thats because there is generally very little interchangeability between groupset components, but there are some exceptions.